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Fantasy-Freak Community => Freaky World => Topic started by: FoiD on January 29, 2008, 08:03:12 AM

Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: FoiD on January 29, 2008, 08:03:12 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=onHkywYc_1M

Really, if he gets in to power there will be so much trouble.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on January 29, 2008, 11:29:10 AM
it'll make for some quality daily show episode though
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on January 29, 2008, 02:44:51 PM
Eh, Huckabee is billing himself as the Christian candidate.  Near as I can tell, that man doesn't even have policy aside from WWJD.

Right now it's looking more like the Republican candidate will be McCain, he of the Bomb bomb Iran Youtube notoriety.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on January 29, 2008, 03:18:26 PM
That's hilarious.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on January 29, 2008, 05:13:06 PM
Well, I'm siding with Barack Obama for these elections. And if it has to be a Republican, then I'd vote for anarchy :D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on January 30, 2008, 12:10:12 AM
Old.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 05, 2008, 09:26:01 PM
I'm sorry FoiD but you better get off the internet and go do some reading because your opinion comes off as... well you need to get a clue

Yes Huckabee wants to change the Constitution, but the Constitution actually says it can be changed and there are rules and procedures for doing it which Huckabee follows 100%. Everybody would like to change the Constitution, the difference with Huckabee is that he's gonna do it the legal way. The Democrats do it illegally by stealth using activist judges to push their liberal agenda. What is wrong with changing the constitution by amendment? Why did the foundnig fathers allow it if it's so dangerous?

Look, if the majority of Senate + House (more than a majority in fact) agree it will pass, otherwise it won't. The people actually get to decide, which does not happen with activist judges. If you don't want this to happen elect your next Representativse and Senators to reflect that, if you don't it's your damn fault. That's how real democracy works...

He is probably by far the best candidate out there, with the most integrity apart from Ron Paul and he'll be the most moderate when he'll be in power, definitely the most moderate Republican. Huckabee has a record, he was Governor of Arkansas for 10 and a half yaers and most people love him there, there's a raeson for that.

So who do you support anyway, that Huckabee is so bad? Romney, the phoney, corporate tool (made his millions by destroying jobs), McInsane the lying Neo-Con? He'll be Dubya Squared in  office - "100 more years in Iraq". Power mad sectarian Hillary Clinton (check out dickmorris.com)? A media-created non-entity (not even one full term in the Senate!) like Obama?

I see far worse things than changing the Constitution to add one line about God, a line stating something that 80% of Americans would agree with.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known As Genome on February 05, 2008, 10:21:50 PM
Quote from: dkan
He is probably by far the best candidate out there, with the most integrity apart from Ron Paul and he'll be the most moderate when he'll be in power, definitely the most moderate Republican. Huckabee has a record, he was Governor of Arkansas for 10 and a half yaers and most people love him there, there's a raeson for that.

So who do you support anyway, that Huckabee is so bad? Romney, the phoney, corporate tool (made his millions by destroying jobs), McInsane the lying Neo-Con? He'll be Dubya Squared in  office - "100 more years in Iraq". Power mad sectarian Hillary Clinton (check out dickmorris.com)? A media-created non-entity (not even one full term in the Senate!) like Obama?

I see far worse things than changing the Constitution to add one line about God, a line stating something that 80% of Americans would agree with.
I feel like Luke Skywalker in the Death Star. "I think we took a wrong turn!"

This is FF, right?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 05, 2008, 11:03:49 PM
So what is allowed on 'FF' then? I didn't read anything in the registration rules about having to be a liberal to comment on political thraeds..
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known As Genome on February 05, 2008, 11:29:24 PM
No, of course you can be conservative (although as pro-Huckabee, you might find life here hard :D) it's just that what you posted felt so strangely out of context for this forum that I wondered if we had gone through the looking glass.

What's your stance on the following: drugs, alcohol, promiscuity, the death penalty, pre-marital sex and abortions? Things must be cleared up, so the flame wars can start properly.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Cthulhu on February 05, 2008, 11:32:24 PM
You.... you read the registration rules?

Seriously, no worries dude.  Post what you like, and post about what you like.  Just be prepared to defend your stances against some... colourful characters.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 05, 2008, 11:42:38 PM
I think abortion being murder is wrong and that abortions should be reduced as much as possible I don't know about making it a crime, though that's up to the states. The important thing is that there should be some way to dissuade it.

The death penalty I have no problem with, it's a tool among others to control crime... depends on the circumstances and again a states issue

Drugs/alcohol/promiscuity - are personal/social issues. They should all be discouraged because they are bad for society but I don't blow them out of proportion. Ideally nobody would use drugs and there would be stable two-parent families who can provide for their kids and be role models, the family is the building block and purpose of society


Is that flame war potential?

Why do you think Huckabee is such a strange candidate? Do you actually know anything about him? Or do you believe the media saying that only evangelicals and hillbillies support him? People support him because he's a nice guy, he's smart and funny and his record is clean, which is more than can be said for any of the others. He also has the best tax policy. The Republican establishment hate his guts that's possibily why they set up Fred Thompson to break his momentum (and what a failure he turned out to be..)

Quote from: Cthulhu
You.... you read the registration rules?
I admit, not really - lol
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 05, 2008, 11:42:49 PM
he doesn't accept evolution.

how does anybody not see this man as a complete joke?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 05, 2008, 11:48:57 PM
Quote from: Mordeth
he doesn't accept evolution.
So the fuck what?

How does a politician's private beliefs become themajor issue? I lookat what people do, not what they say. What are they going to do about the economy, foreign policy, institutions etc.... I don't care what he beileves if it has no impact on policy, and I am also smart enough to know that politicians say things to get elected, it's part of the game you gotta play. I know he'll be better in office than all the others, I don't fall for the crap like believing "straight-talking" McInsane who will try to start a war with Iran.

What kind of person will choose a president based on non-issues like this? Are you the people who are all excited about Obama because he's black? Image-over-substance is the why politics is so screwd up, the same old shit happens every four years
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 05, 2008, 11:57:37 PM
private belief?

should I check to make sure he accepts gravity as well?  I wonder what his opinion on the speed of light is.

jesus christ.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known As Genome on February 06, 2008, 12:08:33 AM
I think you'll find that most of us will be happy if we don't get another Dubya.

That said, I don't like Mike Huckabee for the following reasons:

He opposes abortion. He supports the death penalty (they all do, so this isn't really valid this year). He opposes stem cell research. He's been for isolating AIDS victims. He worms his way out of the * question, by claiming that it's sinful, but not all that sinful. And he's a creationist.

The problem here is naturally that a politican's personal beliefs become issues when he's the most powerful man in the world. This is the guy with executive powers and he's going to act based on what kind of person he is. He might veto every bill that comes up regarding stem cells, he could set back * rights ten years and so on. That's why I don't heart Huckabee.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 06, 2008, 12:13:36 AM
worst movie ever
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known As Genome on February 06, 2008, 12:15:02 AM
Yeah, it's pretty bad. But it's great to use in the pre-election season.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 06, 2008, 12:17:55 AM
So the basic reason you dislike him is that he's an honest Christian?

Thankfully most Americans are not like you
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 06, 2008, 12:18:53 AM
"honest" is not a word that agrees with a politician.
Neither is "christian" though on a different level.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The Artist Formerly Known As Genome on February 06, 2008, 12:22:12 AM
Quote from: dkan
So the basic reason you dislike him is that he's an honest Christian?

Thankfully most Americans are not like you
(http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s155/Genome82/facepalm_lion.jpg)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Hunchback on February 06, 2008, 12:23:23 AM
I sense great lulz in this thread but i am too tired to read it now.
Tomorrow! :D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 06, 2008, 12:26:02 AM
Quote from: "dkan"
...stealth using activist judges...
He he he.   :D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Croi Boi on February 06, 2008, 02:12:09 AM
Wait...who's dkan?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 06, 2008, 05:19:45 AM
Quote from: Genome
Quote from: dkan
So the basic reason you dislike him is that he's an honest Christian?

Thankfully most Americans are not like you
http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s155/Genome82/facepalm_lion.jpg
:rofl:
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 06, 2008, 05:26:47 AM
Yeah, I'm willing to bet this guy is a troll.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 06, 2008, 08:32:36 AM
yeah what's his IP say, is this Mith  just fucking with us? Where is he/she from?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 06, 2008, 09:22:50 AM
Goddam you guys are paranoid
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Nasojiti on February 06, 2008, 11:56:53 AM
Blame the Uniting and Strengthening America by Providing Appropriate Tools Required to Intercept and Obstruct Terrorism Act of 2001, I do.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Nadir on February 06, 2008, 12:09:59 PM
Quote from: dkan
Quote from: Mordeth
he doesn't accept evolution.
So the fuck what?

How does a politician's private beliefs become themajor issue? I lookat what people do, not what they say. What are they going to do about the economy, foreign policy, institutions etc.... I don't care what he beileves if it has no impact on policy
In the clip he just said he wanted to change the constitution so that it reflected the word of god. How is that not his beliefs impacting on policy?

You will probably find that most people on FF like secularized societies where religion has absolutely nothing to do with the state.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 07, 2008, 02:17:39 AM
Quote from: dkan
Goddam you guys are paranoid
I would like to say I/we are endowed with a healthy level of scepticism.

Huckabee as a fundamentalist/creationist/young Earth believer  is dogmatic and morally conservative. He cannot accept much of science as it contradicts his beliefs. His foreign policy will be based on religious prejudices and  probably believes he is there to help facilitate the-end-of-days.

sif I want some clown who takes his orders from a mythical being in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 08, 2008, 01:28:44 AM
Quote from: derty
Quote from: dkan
Goddam you guys are paranoid
I would like to say I/we are endowed with a healthy level of scepticism.

Huckabee as a fundamentalist/creationist/young Earth believer  is dogmatic and morally conservative. He cannot accept much of science as it contradicts his beliefs. His foreign policy will be based on religious prejudices and  probably believes he is there to help facilitate the-end-of-days.

sif I want some clown who takes his orders from a mythical being in charge of the most powerful nation on Earth.
You should pay more attention. He was asked about his beliefs in the age of the Earth recently in a debate and he answered by saying that he doesn't know if the Earth was created in ten million years or ten billion or ten trillion years ago. He said the more important thing is that however long it took God created it, and that because we are His children we are all created equal and have human dignity. That's why he fought racism and anti-semitism and protected the children of illegal immigrants even though the popular 'conservative' thing would have been to pander to hatred.

What would you prefer him to say? That we are all just animals competing for resources so there is no such thing as equality or human rights?

I suspect you're one of those liberals who would prefer a fascist like Hitler because at least he was atheist, it doesn't matter what anyone's intentions are as long as they're not traditional Christians.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 08, 2008, 01:38:12 AM
So you think Atheists don't believe in equality or human rights?

Maybe you should look up Peter Singer...
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 08, 2008, 01:49:53 AM
hahahahahahaha

ah conservatives, you people are crazy.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 08, 2008, 02:21:03 AM
ahh yes, the old your an athiest and so was Hitler (apparently) so you must support him gumph. I'm sure you can Google a better retort than that.

Most of the western leaders are Christian and that doesn't bother me as long as they keep their leadership secular. Some of my good friends are quite religious. What worries me is someone thinking they have a mandate and literally a God given right to govern in His name.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Nasojiti on February 08, 2008, 03:00:01 AM
Godwin's Law.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 08, 2008, 03:46:31 AM
nice work - he should be swimming with the crocodiles now.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 08, 2008, 05:37:59 AM
Huckabee is a bona fide compassionate conservative- I've heard him express humanitarian positions on immigration, foreign policy and healthcare.  As far as the religious right goes, we could do a lot worse than him.

Not that I think he's an ideal candidate, I'm personally of the opinion that religion and politics should not be mixed.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 08, 2008, 05:52:09 AM
Which one was the one that said we should quarantine those with AIDS?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 08, 2008, 06:50:14 AM
That was Huckabee, but he said it in 1992.  I'm willing to believe he may have changed his mind in the last 16 years.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 08, 2008, 06:56:18 AM
Quote from: Kat
That was Huckabee, but he said it in 1992.  I'm willing to believe he may have changed his mind in the last 16 years.
Someone that stupid in 1992 is probably not going to be any smarter in 2008.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 08, 2008, 08:58:11 AM
Well, at least the iron robot Romney is out of the way now :P.

As for Huckabee, I read a bit about him on Wikipedia. Some of his viewpoints are decent, most are awkward, some are truly bad. But like Georgy Bush, I guess he too will spend the money before he gets it, leaving the bill of his reign for America's children and grandchildren.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 08, 2008, 01:55:10 PM
Quote from: Julius
Quote from: Kat
That was Huckabee, but he said it in 1992.  I'm willing to believe he may have changed his mind in the last 16 years.
Someone that stupid in 1992 is probably not going to be any smarter in 2008.
I've never liked the way campaign strategists pour over every word a candidate has ever said in hopes of finding something embarrassing.  I don't care if a candidate praised Mao Tse Tung in their college poly sci class or whatever.  It's sleazy politics and it detracts from the issues of the here and now.

There's plenty of reasons not to vote for Huckabee that don't involve some goofy quote he made forever ago.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 08, 2008, 05:52:16 PM
Quote from: dkan
So the basic reason you dislike him is that he's an honest Christian?

Thankfully most Americans are not like you
Uhmm yes they are... That's why the retard is polling in the low 0's.


And I can assure you this is not Mith. Even he is not creative enough to pull a level like this.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 08, 2008, 05:59:51 PM
Quote from: Kat
Huckabee is a bona fide compassionate conservative- I've heard him express humanitarian positions on immigration, foreign policy and healthcare.  As far as the religious right goes, we could do a lot worse than him.

Not that I think he's an ideal candidate, I'm personally of the opinion that religion and politics should not be mixed.
Exactly, thank you for your honesty. I personally think all the religious fundamentalist stuff is for show and the game, he believes in God but he wouldn't try to impose anything in office. Look at him in office as Governor, 10 1/2 years, he ran a pretty moderate administration and Arkansans of all political stripes respect him.

Quote from: Aginor
Quote from: dkan
So the basic reason you dislike him is that he's an honest Christian?

Thankfully most Americans are not like you
Uhmm yes they are... That's why the retard is polling in the low 0's.
Actually it's more like the 25% range. He should have got more delegates than Romney on Tuesday except the states he won happen to be more Proportional Represenatation than Romney's.

Look, like I said he's not ideal but you're never going to find a candidate for a US Presidential who is ideal, especially not in the primary season. He is the lesser of evils in the Republican field. Romney, Thompson, Giuliani were all clearly worse
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 08, 2008, 06:03:12 PM
So 25% to you is the majority of Americans? Wow, you must be one of those people that thought 50.2% clearly meant a strong mandate.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 08, 2008, 06:05:38 PM
Quote from: Aginor
So 25% to you is the majority of Americans? Wow, you must be one of those people that though 50.2% clearly meant a strong mandate.
25% in the polls doesn't mean the majority don't like him or agree with him on issues, it means that 75% don't think he can win or don't know about him and his record.

The Republican establishment hates him and did all it could to sabotage him after Iowa. Look how well he's done per dollar spent, he has the worst funded campaign, less cash than even Ron Paul and yet look how he did. He could have won South Carolina with 2% more, the weather massively benefited McCain supporter turnout. If he had won there I think he could have won the nomination.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 08, 2008, 06:09:17 PM
Yeah it does. Unless you've been living under a rock, you pretty much know where a candidate stands on the issues. And the social conservtive bunch don't really care whether a person can win or not, they generally support a candidate that thinks like them. So he's got all of their support and noone elses. :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 08, 2008, 06:12:19 PM
It's funny I bet a lot of you guys support Obama. The guy who is supposed to stand for change, yet he's raised $30 million since the beginning of the year. He's got the whole establishment behind him, Wall Street, Brzezinski, all kinds of military guys and the DLC. You're going to be in for a big surprise when he has to govern.

He's not the worst candidate possible but please try to look at the facts. Look at what people have done and who is bankrolling them rather than what they say during campaign rallies.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 08, 2008, 06:20:17 PM
And more than half of those donations came from people that gave less than 200 dollars. Somehow I don't see many wall street types only donating 200 dollars or less. And nice touch mentioning the DLC. Funny they'd support a candidate who publicly has said the he isn't nor ever was a member.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 08, 2008, 06:48:52 PM
Obama might flip-flop once he is in office, but then again that risk exists for all the other candidates as well. What makes Obama stand out of the crowd (besides his viewpoints) imho is that his campaign is surprisingly lacking hate :P.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 08, 2008, 06:52:48 PM
Hate keeps a man alive!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 08, 2008, 06:57:28 PM
Quote from: dkan
Quote from: Aginor
So 25% to you is the majority of Americans? Wow, you must be one of those people that though 50.2% clearly meant a strong mandate.
25% in the polls doesn't mean the majority don't like him or agree with him on issues, it means that 75% don't think he can win or don't know about him and his record.
And that's extremely dumb reasoning. By the same standards if a white supremacist ran and had 25% support, the other 75% agree with him but don't think he can win or don't know about him and his record? *boggle*
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 08, 2008, 11:47:25 PM
No but John McCain at the moment is running at around 35%, last I heard and everyone says he'll win. If Huckabee had got 2% more in South Carolina I think he could have got a boost of 10% which would have placed him where McCain is now.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 09, 2008, 12:49:27 AM
Quote from: dkan
...and everyone says he'll win. If Huckabee had got 2% more in South Carolina I think he could have got a boost of 10% which would have placed him where McCain is now.
Huh?!
"Everyone says" isn't particularly evidence-based... And 2% != 10%...
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 09, 2008, 02:22:06 AM
The South Carolina primary is highly symbolic, probably the most symbolic after New Hampshire and Iowa. Whoever wins that gets a definite boost and everybody who knows anything agrees that McCain's victory there (by 2%) is the reason he's frontrunner today. He could have still managed to become frontrunner but it's when he started dominating the media reporting - if he'd failed or come in third place he probably would be finished today.

So yes, a 2% difference in a key primary can and repeatedly does lead to a 10% lead a week or two later. Do you know anything about the US primary system? The eventual nominees win because of 90% media presentation and expectation. You get votes if the media thinks you're 'credible', which is why the fact that Huckabee still has 25% today shows that he has a significant base of support. Giuliani's career is over because he kept coming last in all the early symbolic states even though he was leading in the polls nationally and in places like Florida, New York, California.

Does that mean that Giulani has no base of support and couldn't have won? No, it means events, 'luck' were against him.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 09, 2008, 02:36:21 AM
(http://www.nydailynews.com/img/2007/10/07/alg_rudy-jeopardy.jpg)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 09, 2008, 02:37:15 AM
Yeah, sure. That's not what your post said, and you didn't provide the reasoning for it.

Quote
Do you know anything about the US primary system?
Apart from the obvious? :-P I'm not American...


lol @ Mordie :D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 09, 2008, 02:41:27 AM
It's all a bit of a circus really, would be funny if there wasn't so much at stake.

Over here on the other side of the Pacific I'm personally rooting for Obama as he is not republican, hopefully he will force some separation of corporation and state and be less divisive.

Though if Obama gets in how long will it be before he is assassinated? Bets on if he makes 1 term? I mean he is black and if he rocks the boat it will be only a matter of time before some nutjob with a gun (and this is the US we are talking about) or some spook shoots him.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 09, 2008, 05:57:55 AM
I figure that pretty much whoever wins is gonna be a cunt and lie to people. So you may as well be lied to by somebody handsome and charismatic. It'd be a lot easier to swallow Obama's bullshit.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Auryn on February 09, 2008, 06:22:15 AM
(http://users.on.net/~obyrne/obama.jpg)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 09, 2008, 06:32:44 AM
Quote from: Devlyn
Obama might flip-flop once he is in office, but then again that risk exists for all the other candidates as well. What makes Obama stand out of the crowd (besides his viewpoints) imho is that his campaign is surprisingly lacking hate :P.
It's a bigger risk with Obama just because he's too inexperienced to have a track record on some issues (foreign policy comes instantly to mind).  Voting for Obama is a bit chancy but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

Better a promising candidate with less experience than a candidate with a long record of dishonesty and scandal.  Better Obama than Hillary.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 09, 2008, 07:21:42 AM
Better "Hilarity" than "Oh Bummer"!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 09, 2008, 09:35:47 AM
Quote from: Kat
Quote from: Devlyn
Obama might flip-flop once he is in office, but then again that risk exists for all the other candidates as well. What makes Obama stand out of the crowd (besides his viewpoints) imho is that his campaign is surprisingly lacking hate :P.
It's a bigger risk with Obama just because he's too inexperienced to have a track record on some issues (foreign policy comes instantly to mind).  Voting for Obama is a bit chancy but it's a risk I'm willing to take.

Better a promising candidate with less experience than a candidate with a long record of dishonesty and scandal.  Better Obama than Hillary.
On one hand I agree with you. Barack may be susceptible to future lobbyists and other external pressures. On the other hand, his arrival shows some similarities to the arrival of Fortuyn in the Netherlands a bunch of years ago (not in terms of political positioning, mind you! ;)). Rather than drawing out from existing populace, he too seems to bring new voters to the booths. Those people want some real fundamental change, and such change won't come from well-established politicians.

There are serious risks with Barack, he's an unknown factor. He might flip-flop once in office, he might even be shot too (I sure hope that won't ever happen), but knowing what established politicians stood for and accomplished in the last decades, I'm all for the Obama gamble. Bush's American Dream was but a drop of fuel for a nightmare, and I see Obama as the only person able to take out the trash and restore the country's dignity towards its own populace and its international allies.

-Devlyn, who thanks SA for due inspiration :P
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 09, 2008, 11:17:01 PM
60% in Kansas (vs 22% for McCain)... not bad for an extremist fundamentalist!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 09, 2008, 11:18:01 PM
uh... that's about right for kansas though isn't it? :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 10, 2008, 01:34:59 AM
Quote from: Devlyn
On one hand I agree with you. Barack may be susceptible to future lobbyists and other external pressures. On the other hand, his arrival shows some similarities to the arrival of Fortuyn in the Netherlands a bunch of years ago (not in terms of political positioning, mind you! ;)). Rather than drawing out from existing populace, he too seems to bring new voters to the booths. Those people want some real fundamental change, and such change won't come from well-established politicians.

There are serious risks with Barack, he's an unknown factor. He might flip-flop once in office, he might even be shot too (I sure hope that won't ever happen), but knowing what established politicians stood for and accomplished in the last decades, I'm all for the Obama gamble. Bush's American Dream was but a drop of fuel for a nightmare, and I see Obama as the only person able to take out the trash and restore the country's dignity towards its own populace and its international allies.

-Devlyn, who thanks SA for due inspiration :P
Sure, but wasn't Pim Fortuyn a bigoted jerk whose primary role turned out to be organizing anti-Muslim sentiment into a political entity?  Van Gogh and Wilders seem to be the most glaring examples of his legacy.  I'm not entirely sure I want Obama to turn out to be another Fortuyn.

Edit: When I first read your post I took "political positioning" to mean political maneuvering, but it occurs to me upon rereading that maybe you meant they had nothing in common in terms of policy?  If so then nevermind.  :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 10, 2008, 04:32:34 AM
Quote from: dkan
60% in Kansas (vs 22% for McCain)... not bad for an extremist fundamentalist!
You're either a paid shill or a moro... whatever. Fucking Kansas, you fool. Kansas, Louisiana, and Washington State. Are you fucking serious? If a crazy American talibanista can't win there, this country is in a lot better shape than i thought.
:D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 10, 2008, 05:17:36 AM
http://www.hucksarmy.com/videos/HuckCPAC02092008.wmv
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 10, 2008, 05:50:13 AM
lol, not finding your recruitment efforts going so well?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 10, 2008, 05:57:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7xgtAWfSWM  :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 10, 2008, 07:47:25 AM
Quote from: Aginor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N7xgtAWfSWM  :)
Heh.  :D
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 10, 2008, 11:38:46 AM
Huck Me, lol

I think this one is funnier though: (he's right too)
http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=VaBSqGiAsJM&feature=related
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 10, 2008, 11:16:47 PM
Quote from: Kat
Edit: When I first read your post I took "political positioning" to mean political maneuvering, but it occurs to me upon rereading that maybe you meant they had nothing in common in terms of policy?  If so then nevermind.  :)
Indeed :P.  Their viewpoints are wildly different, of course ;).
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mandie on February 11, 2008, 07:34:03 AM
Quote from: dkan
I think abortion being murder is wrong and that abortions should be reduced as much as possible I don't know about making it a crime, though that's up to the states. The important thing is that there should be some way to dissuade it.
No, it's up to the woman. Not some politician to decide what I do with MY body.


<---Hillary Supporter (you all knew this already, I'm sure)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 11, 2008, 08:37:49 AM
...and the child YOU own!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 11, 2008, 09:08:00 AM
Yes, because the foetus is fully able to support itself outside the mother's body.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 11, 2008, 12:44:11 PM
A newborn baby isn't exactly able to support itself outside the mother's body either.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 11, 2008, 12:52:32 PM
It'd last longer than a foetus. Like, more than 10 minutes.

Or whatever.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 11, 2008, 01:19:07 PM
So if being able to take care of yourself is what gives you rights...  do handicapped people belong to their parents, or to the government or what?

Should I be allowed to kill my senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing me?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The new Olli (with hair) on February 11, 2008, 02:15:56 PM
This entire thread is a rehash of every retarded internet debate that has ever been recorded since 1993. Congratulations for making my ears bleed.

dkan: Do a google search for my answer to your ridiculous, loaded, red herring question. I can't be bothered to rebut every new Republican that stumbled onto the How To: Internet Debate manual.

Continue.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 11, 2008, 02:29:10 PM
Quote from: dkan
Should I be allowed to kill my senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing me?
ALLOWED?
It's your duty.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 11, 2008, 03:04:24 PM
Hey I'm not the one bringing out the retarded liberal talking points one after the other. I just provide the obvious common sense responses

I didn't actually think this was going to become a debate. I am simply surprised that Huckabee is such a bogeyman to some of you considering all the other horrible candidates there are out there.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 11, 2008, 04:17:54 PM
Simply surprised! Obviously. Common Sense Good! Bogeyman Boo! Horrible candidates Grrrrrr!

Boy you are one hell of an idiot. Well played.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 11, 2008, 04:35:18 PM
Thanks, you're my inspiration
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 11, 2008, 09:26:30 PM
The most horrible candidate has been elected 7 years ago. Things can only get better!

And dkan, don't be scared by them cynical liberals. Their flamy pasts have left them branded, but deep inside the charcoal you may find they're actually cool peeps!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Lannie on February 11, 2008, 09:48:18 PM
Quote from: dkan
So if being able to take care of yourself is what gives you rights...  do handicapped people belong to their parents, or to the government or what?

Should I be allowed to kill my senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing me?
That was never the issue. If you had a few working braincells, you know that it was just an addition to Amanda's statement about how it's the mother's body. And that she should decide what happens to her body... as every woman should. Until the child's born, it's an organism that parasites on the mother's body, and thus it's up to the mother; she has more right to make decisions than anyone else in the world.

Question though; your comment on being allowed to 'kill senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing you' sounds so bitter that I wonder if you're against euthanasia (sp?), too. Do you feel that's murder, too?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 12, 2008, 12:13:56 AM
Quote from: dkan
Hey I'm not the one bringing out the retarded liberal talking points one after the other. I just provide the obvious common sense responses

I didn't actually think this was going to become a debate. I am simply surprised that Huckabee is such a bogeyman to some of you considering all the other horrible candidates there are out there.
lol. So what you're saying is that your point of view is always right and common sense, but any opposing one is "retarded"?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: pBluescript on February 12, 2008, 02:53:58 AM
This place is so fucking predictable.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 12, 2008, 03:27:55 AM
Quote from: Lannie
Quote from: dkan
So if being able to take care of yourself is what gives you rights...  do handicapped people belong to their parents, or to the government or what?

Should I be allowed to kill my senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing me?
That was never the issue. If you had a few working braincells, you know that it was just an addition to Amanda's statement about how it's the mother's body. And that she should decide what happens to her body... as every woman should. Until the child's born, it's an organism that parasites on the mother's body, and thus it's up to the mother; she has more right to make decisions than anyone else in the world.

Question though; your comment on being allowed to 'kill senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing you' sounds so bitter that I wonder if you're against euthanasia (sp?), too. Do you feel that's murder, too?
Yes of course. It follows from the same logic and principle.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 12, 2008, 03:31:27 AM
I'm against anyone ever being killed, unless it's the only way to save another life or if some great crime has been committed. Suicide is different but I don't think there are ever true, 'rational' suicides - or they're very rare, there will always be social, psychological pressures on people even if they don't realize it.

I'm sorry if you think my motivation is evil.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 12, 2008, 03:50:08 AM
Evil's a pretty black and white concept...
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 12, 2008, 03:55:49 AM
Well often pro-abortion people say pro-life folks are misogynistic or want to control people, which I think are evil motivations. I only speak for myself but that's not the reason for my views. Same way as I can see why people would be for legalizing abortion because criminalization sometimes make things worse.

..though comments about the unborn being 'parasites' strike me as being more bitter than anything I've said.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 12, 2008, 04:05:35 AM
By the way if the number of abortions could be kept to a minimum while women still had the legal option, by taking away the reasons why many abortions (poverty, no father, stigma etc) happen I would be happy with that. The law isn't what matters, it's the consequences that matter. I think too many people on both sides get too caught up with the legal question which becomes obsessive and lose sight of the big picture.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 12, 2008, 04:13:11 AM
I want to abort, because it makes my belly fat!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 12, 2008, 04:16:56 AM
What are the unborn if they are not parasites? You can hardly call the relationship symbiotic.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 12, 2008, 06:10:08 AM
You can't call a fetus a parasite because by their very definition, parasites provide no benefits to their hosts.  Babies are the means by which people pass their genes on to later generations, which, from an evolutionary perspective, is the very purpose of life.  It definitely outweighs 9 months of inconvenience and discomfort in any case.

And that's not even taking into consideration the joy and psychological fulfillment many people experience in the raising of their children.   I don't hear too many folk bemoaning the mood swings and achy backs once they hold their newborn in their arms.   :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 12, 2008, 06:59:01 AM
Overpopulation is more of an issue to me than abortion. I think it's every woman's moral duty to fall down a staircase or two while pregnant.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: nunya on February 12, 2008, 07:04:29 AM
Quote from: Kat
Babies are the means by which people pass their genes on to later generations, which, from an evolutionary perspective, is the very purpose of life.
So what you are saying is that the meaning of life is actually sex and not 42??
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 12, 2008, 07:09:27 AM
I'm saying that it doesn't make sense to call babies parasites, because they aren't.  :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Aginor on February 12, 2008, 08:20:56 AM
Quote from: dkan
Well often pro-choice people say anti-choice folks are misogynistic or want to control people, which I think are evil motivations. I only speak for myself but that's not the reason for my views. Same way as I can see why people would be for legalizing abortion because criminalization sometimes make things worse.

..though comments about the unborn being 'parasites' strike me as being more bitter than anything I've said.
Fixed it for you :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Rick on February 12, 2008, 12:14:45 PM
Quote from: Kat
I don't hear too many folk bemoaning the mood swings and achy backs once they hold their newborn in their arms.   :)
No,  then they bemoan the incessant wailing, the shitting, the messy eating et cetera ad infinitum.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Croi Boi on February 12, 2008, 05:15:17 PM
I can't believe I used to get suckered into these bash-fests.  :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mandie on February 12, 2008, 06:39:56 PM
After having carried not one but two, I'll witness to the fact that a fetus is a parasite for sure, esp when I am sick and huddled over the toilet gagging. :p
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Lannie on February 12, 2008, 06:59:00 PM
Quote from: dkan
Quote from: Lannie
That was never the issue. If you had a few working braincells, you know that it was just an addition to Amanda's statement about how it's the mother's body. And that she should decide what happens to her body... as every woman should. Until the child's born, it's an organism that parasites on the mother's body, and thus it's up to the mother; she has more right to make decisions than anyone else in the world.

Question though; your comment on being allowed to 'kill senile grandparents if they're inconveniencing you' sounds so bitter that I wonder if you're against euthanasia (sp?), too. Do you feel that's murder, too?
Yes of course. It follows from the same logic and principle.
And in the case of my grandfather, dying from cancer - in a terminal phase, no hope left - who had weeks of pain and suffering and shitting himself and withering away ahead of him and asked his doctor to be relieved from his pain earlier? You still feel that's murder? A despicable thing? Isn't that mercy?

Also, wrt the parasite thing: I didn't mean it in a bitter way. The child eats the mother's food, nourishes itself because of the mother's body. It inconveniences her (somewhat). In my (maybe limited in the field of biology) eyes that's a bit of a parasite. But as soon it's born, that's a completely different situation. If you look closely, you'd see that I didn't say anything about that, I was referring that it's the mother who is bearing the child, so from a physical point of view she gets to call the shots... I think that's only fair :)
A child born to this world to loving parents is a little miracle that should be cherished. :)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 13, 2008, 12:43:34 AM
I think you should never ask anyone to kill anyone else. If you want to die, take your own life alone but don't involve someone else causing them to become murderers.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 13, 2008, 12:57:06 AM
You don't quite get the methodolgy of euthanasia, do you?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 13, 2008, 09:12:40 AM
Quote from: dkan
I think you should never ask anyone to kill anyone else. If you want to die, take your own life alone but don't involve someone else causing them to become murderers.
...which really isn't that much of an issue. We have the luxury to choose that under some conditions we do not want to be abandoned and suffer a long and horribly painful death, but rather a shorter death that is more respectful to the person dying and the people close to that person.

If you choose to deny yourself that luxury, that is your choice. But really, have you got any clue of what kind of suffering we're talking about?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 13, 2008, 12:13:19 PM
Yes and it doesn't make a difference. No government should legalize murder
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 13, 2008, 12:36:33 PM
uh

war, death pentaly, the police with guns?

lots of governments do, most of them wouldn't survive if they didn't.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 13, 2008, 01:39:09 PM
Yeah as punishments for crime or in self-defence, the purpose being to save lives

It's not the same thing. Euthanasia/abortion is giving up on life.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 13, 2008, 01:57:18 PM
(http://www.fbi.gov/hq/lab/fsc/backissu/july2000/images/split.jpg)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: FoiD on February 13, 2008, 02:18:42 PM
Quote from: dkan
Yeah as punishments for crime or in self-defence, the purpose being to save lives

It's not the same thing. Euthanasia/abortion is giving up on life.
Or saving someone from suffering.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 13, 2008, 03:49:47 PM
I really think there's something wrong with a mentality that says killing someone to punish them is okay, but that voluntary acceptance of death in the face of terminal disease is not.  That doesn't seem backwards to you?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Lannie on February 13, 2008, 04:11:29 PM
So you can take your own life, but if you can't get up from your bed to get your own fucking morphine to make you sleep forever, you should suffer until death?

(and what Kat said... total agreement.)
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 13, 2008, 05:26:11 PM
Quote from: "dkan"
Yes and it doesn't make a difference.
So according to you it does not make a difference whether a human has tremendous traumatic pain with no hope for a way out other than death, or not?

I know the Bible refers to suffering and pain like it's some kind of pizza-topping, but issues like these affect people completely. You make no sense whatsoever by first stating that you are pro-life and that the government should never murder anyone, only to proceed with the claim that killing to save lives is okay and that it really doesn't matter whether people are in an incurable state of torture or not.

Human life may start with a bloodflow and a heartbeat, but it sure does not end with it. Quality of life is what ultimately defines life.
If you consider yourself honestly pro-life, you should seriously reconsider your positions, opt for a less black-and-white approach and aim towards opinions that benefit people's quality of life, rather than preserve heartbeats against any price (even prolonged torture apparently).

Some people would like not to end up in such situations of hopeless suffering. Their choice for death in such cases hurts no-one, giving you no right to enforce anything against their will.

Besides, your whole prioritization at preserving heartbeats is horribly ineffective. Much cheaper and less drastic measures are possible to save a much larger number of heartbeats. Why not make open an "issue" using those?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mandie on February 17, 2008, 02:50:13 AM
When people that are against humane euthanasia are on their death beds riddled with disease, pain, anguish, depression and imminent death, I'll be sure to protest them having control over their own lives to end it.

My mother got an extra special dose of morphine in her morphine drip when she died. She didn't suffer nearly as much as she could have or as long as she could have... she was too out of it, and I am very thankful for that.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 17, 2008, 03:37:28 PM
God knows we would have looked at euthanasia as an option when my grandfather was dying, had it been legal in the US.  He chose not to treat his cancer because treatment only would have prolonged his life a short while and he wanted to suffer as little as possible, but the last few months of his life were agony anyway.  Euthanasia might have let him keep some dignity instead of watching his body fall apart a bit at a time.

On most issues I can see where the other side is coming from, but I just don't understand people who are against euthanasia.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: dkan on February 17, 2008, 08:11:07 PM
Like I said you can take drugs to reduce the pain or kill yourself but you shouldn't ask others to do it

And whether it happens or not it definitely shouldn't be legal or condoned by society
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Deus on February 17, 2008, 10:56:51 PM
Drugs to reduce pain don't keep working like that. You build up tolerance against them and need to up the dose until they become lethal...
Also in a lot of cases euthenasia is for people who cannot kill themselves any longer, so simply saying that you should always do it yourself is simply a way of dodging a major part of this issue...
Personally I think euthenasia is one of the most humane laws that a country can put into its legal system. My mother, who as a home nurse worked with a lot of terminally ill people, said that to almost all of those who decided on euthenasia it was like a gift from heaven. These people, once they knew they could decide on their own death, were much at peace, much more dignified, had time to take care of their affairs and say goodbye to everybody they loved...
Fortunately I live in a country where this is possible...
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Mordeth on February 17, 2008, 11:04:47 PM
everything is possible where you live
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Nuada on February 17, 2008, 11:06:43 PM
A country of Druggies and murderers, may the seas reclaim it...
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 17, 2008, 11:57:33 PM
What, like Ireland, Nu?
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Nasojiti on February 18, 2008, 12:52:30 AM
Fuck 'em, if they not tough enough to die in terrible, horrible pain they're not worthy of sympathy.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 18, 2008, 04:53:43 AM
Quote from: dkan
Like I said you can take drugs to reduce the pain or kill yourself but you shouldn't ask others to do it

And whether it happens or not it definitely shouldn't be legal or condoned by society
I think people need to rethink the assumption that all life is sanctified and that the very idea of taking another human's life is fucked up. I think there are many situations where it would be fucked up not to take another person's life.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: The new Olli (with hair) on February 18, 2008, 05:04:35 AM
You'd think after 5 years of me you people would be able to identify when you're being jerked around and react appropriately.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Julius on February 18, 2008, 05:15:24 AM
Maybe they (we) enjoy it too much? :-P

Masochists, the lot of ya!
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: AshtrayMonument on February 18, 2008, 06:47:27 AM
I just like arguing.
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Devlyn, the special edition on February 18, 2008, 08:12:26 AM
Quote from: Mythrandir
You'd think after 5 years of me you people would be able to identify when you're being jerked around and react appropriately.
FF is no place for thinking :P
Title: Scariest thing I have seen so far this year.
Post by: Kat on February 18, 2008, 04:12:08 PM
Eh, I like talking politics sometimes, and the Netherlands is so liberal I'm considered conservative by most folk.  It's nice to occasionally hear from someone I completely disagree with.

...oomph.  You know you've been away from home a while when you start missing the religious right.  :S